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greedo
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:54 pm    Post subject: Units vs Metres Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 41

Is there any means by which I can set the value of one unit, or change the scale to metres? Also, is it correct to say that 25 units are about 1m? That came from measuring a tree with a brush.
It would be really important for our project, since we have all our stuff scaled to SI.

Thanks,
greedo
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makit3d
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 123

I would agree that this is a key factor for me as well. I am surprised I didn't realize it before. Guess I am getting old. Smile
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ALicu
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1328

Yes, for now, units are not yet implemented but this shouldn't be a problem.
The current units are world units, you can consider them anything you want (meters, cm, inches, miles etc).

The demo scenes don't follow a certain rule (I think they are in meters though). You are not restricted in any way to use that scale. All the terrain filters can be setup to output to any scale you want (you can use the World Transformation for fractal filters for example). In general all the tools come by default for meters but you can change all that and make your own tool presets.

Environment settings can be also set to any scale:
- camera near, far planes, walking height are settable
- fog start / end
- lights radius

Depending on your game world scaling you can set all these parameters and they are saved in the editor configuration.
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greedo
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 41

Sorry but I'm afraid that I haven't understood you fully. What do you mean by considering them anything I want?
We have buildings and characters scaled to meters. So terrain should be scaled relative to the models.
I see that I can set brushes and everything to any scale I want, but I still don't know what that scale is in world units.
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ALicu
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1328

If all your data is in meters then you should consider the world units meters too. So, for example, when you choose the paint brush radius to 100 units it means 100 meters.

Another example, terrain creation. When you want a terrain 1Km by 1Km you can choose to create 2 by 2 zones of 512 tiles with 1 unit (1 meter) per tile so you create terrain of 1024 by 1024 units (meters), which is approximately 1 by 1 km (and is power of two as tiles no. which is important for some game engines).

Then, let's say, you want to create some mountains. You choose fractal noise and choose Altitude Range of 0 to 2000 units so mountains are 2000 meters high. Adjust World Transformation so mountains are dense and detailed as you want.

So basically you can adopt 1 world unit = 1 meter if this suits your game / engine as long as all objects are proportioned accordingly.

Real world units inside game worlds are just a convention. Depends on what you want them to be.

Hope this helps.
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greedo
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 41

My problem is that if i imported an object scaled 10 meters, that would be a certain size in grome.
If i say that this house is 10 meters long, then I can't just make up how much is one km, because that 1 km should be exactly 100 times the lenght of my house.

Another thing is that if you measure the trees in the demo, you get about 25 units for one meter (if i remember correctly). You can scale the trees up and down, but still, you have to make it so that if, say, one tree is 10 meters tall, then an edge of a zone should be 100 times the height of that tree.

Now, if i say that one meter is one unit, and use default size trees, this is how it looks like on a 2x2 km zone:
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6747/2x2bt4.jpg

3ds MAX has a feature that sets units to meters. I know that it's just made up, but that doesn't matter. What matters, is that any modelers who set up their program so, will get the exact same object if they make a box with it's edges ten meters long. It would be nice for Grome to be able to use this system, so that i don't have to scale all objects to match grome's world units.

I hope you'll see my point now, I'm not too good with expressing myself, sorry for that.


Last edited by greedo on Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:07 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Hunnenkoenig
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 42
Location: Vienna/Budapest

ALicu, I think, you have a misconcept in your thinking Smile

In MAX you can set the measures to meter, so it will scale the object proportional to real world meters (for example 1:1000).

We have to know, what measure units are used in Grome, because we have our models already, so it would be easier to set the scale in Grome, then scale all of our trees and houses to the terrain.

I try to explain:

If i take a brush in Grome and i make a line between A & B, and say, this is a mountain, i have to know, if I drew a 1 KM mountain or a 5 KM mountain in length.

It does not help, if i know that this is 10 units, because if i draw 10 units and then place my house made in MAX, maybe the mountain is the same length like my house, because I thought I draw a 1 KM mountain, but proportionally to my house it is just 10 meters.

I hope it is more clear now, what Greedo tries to say... Laughing
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ALicu
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1328

Hello,

Yes, Max has the concept of display units and System units. No matter what units you choose to show in UI, internally he is using system units. Then when you export, the exporter must take care and scale the scene data to your selected units. Grome, in the future, will have the same system.

But there is no problem with the current world units either. If the demo trees are showing at the wrong scaling (relative to 1 unit = 1 meter) it doesn't matter for you. The artist that made them worked at a different world scaling but that doesn't mean that Grome can only work at that scale.

What I'm trying to say if that you consider 1 unit = 1 meter for you is fine. You can set up all the tools and settings to match that scaling. It isn't like Grome can only make mountains at a certain scale (the one from demo). He can make them at any scale. All depends on your standard (your own choice of engine units).

Also at export you can scale the data to any units you want.

Another problem you said you can have is that if you use objects from other sources, that are at another scale, they will show disproportionate. Yes, but the same problem applies to Max. If you are to import 3ds, collada etc (any other format than native max format that doesn't indicate scaling in it, and there are plenty of that type) you can different scaling than what you have already. That's why you can write plug-ins to convert them.

But let's not complicate things. You have your assets in meters. Perfect. They will work great with Grome as you can create terrain with one 1 unit = 1 meter. Because you don't have to adjust the objects to the terrain. You create the terrain to the objects, to your own world.

Hope this helps.
Regards
Licu
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ALicu
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1328

Quote:
In MAX you can set the measures to meter, so it will scale the object proportional to real world meters (for example 1:1000).


You have them in max system units no matter what the artists selected for display. If the system units = display units then yes you have them in meters. Now this depends on what your exporter does exactly.

If indeed you have them in meters, again, it is perfect. Grome is by default set to meters as all the default tools settings are set to reasonable meter units (anyway they can be easily changed and saved in presets).

Quote:
We have to know, what measure units are used in Grome, because we have our models already, so it would be easier to set the scale in Grome, then scale all of our trees and houses to the terrain.


Again, as I said, you don't have to scale the objects to terrain. Terrain is to be made. And can be made at any scale.

If you want you can send me a small max object of yours and I can test exactly its units and even send you back a native Grome version of it for you to test.

Regards,
Licu
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makit3d
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 123

I understand what both are saying. But, if I may, it helps to see exactly what is happening with any given object. As artists we are almost purely visual and rely on seeing first instead of believing.

While Grome is already set for meters there is no visual feedback to inform us about this information. As stated artists are mostly visual and being able to create a terrain and see what size it is (in meters for example) gives us tow things. 1, the initial feedback we need to continue forward knowing we created it right the first time and 2, peace of mind knowing that our terrains and the models we are going to place on them will be of compatible sizes.

For me, I would love to see the size in meters displayed along with the, or in place of, the standard terrain units. It removes that extra bit of worry and doubt which plagues us to the end of a project.
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ALicu
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1328

Yes, you are right makit3d, it helps showing the units. But again as you said, artist are purely visual. And, I gave you the Max as example, the actual units are hidden, are system units. So I cannot be sure what units you are using unless I'm looking at your system units settings.

But, on the other hand, this duality can be misleading. If the exporting doesn't do any scaling you actually get system units in your engine that may differ from what you see in the Max. You can end up with object with wrong scaling in the game.

Now, Grome works in system units directly. This can be anything you want, meters, inches, miles. Depends on your choose. In the future we will have a similar system with the one from Max but this doesn't stop you in any way, no matter what your units are, to create matching terrain for your objects/engine.

Hunnenkoenig, again best thing is to test the actual units. As I said, you can send me a file and I can convert it for you in a format Grome can read (because you only have the demo and cannot do that yourself).
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makit3d
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 123

Right, understood. This is one of those sticky subjects that will catch people off guard. Because people like me get so rooted in the product and forget about the system that is creating it, or how it works, our confusion/misunderstanding tends to reach more than one level. Smile
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Hunnenkoenig
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 42
Location: Vienna/Budapest

ALicu, thanks for your effort and your support.

I will try to get a house from our graphic artists and send you the file, but probably not before sunday. I have things to do saturday and I am not at home.

Thanks again!

I am sure, we will learn to use Grome and it will work perfectly Smile
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ALicu
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1328

Hello, glad I can help.
Just send me a message or mail when you want my support. We will try to get some of your models in a Grome terrain. I'm sure we can find the best solution for you.

Regards,
Licu
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Hunnenkoenig
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 42
Location: Vienna/Budapest

ALicu, I have a model of a house now. Where can I send it to?

I didn't find an email adress in your profile.

The house's units are in centimeters. The door is 234cm high.

In MAX the measure system was scaled to 1 Unit= 1 m , 1 System Unit = 1 cm

(I don't know, what it exactly means... I was told this by the modeler, who made the house)
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