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mrhiggens
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:22 pm    Post subject: is this normal? Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 14

Right so i made a terrain, a pretty big one at that but not sooo huge but anyway, i went to export it and chose "use swapping" since my terrain was big and 95% of it was swapped when i exported it. i choose heightmap and click ok and it starts exporting. The problem is, it is now 2 days later and its still exporting and i have a heightmap file at 6gb right now which keeps increasing in size... i didn't think i made it that big, will it ever finish? or is it some sort of bug that wont stop going until my HDD is full? what does the "use swapping" button do in the export menu because i checked it off.

the exporter has become a black screen that just says not responding but the file is getting bigger every second. the only other thign i remember was that it was about 200, 512 res zones but i dont know the size of the zones.

Some info on this would be good so i know or not if i should restart again.
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ALicu
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1327

Hello,

That is not normal. We've exported bigger scenes much faster. What exporter are you using? I assume Large Data Sets exporter. Can you please post a screenshot of the UI with the options you've selected? Most probably you've selected a heightmap resolusion sampling step that is very small compared with the tile size (the distance between two vertices) that you have in the scene.

Regards,
Adrian L.
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mrhiggens
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 14

ok so each of my zones are 512 res with 500.925 tiles

heres the picture of what i exported the first time ( never ended) so what do i change and what do i change it to?( sorry im a noob)

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ALicu
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1327

Hello,

So your zones are 512 by 512 each. I assume that the tile size (the distance between two vertices) is 500.925. In this case please enter 500.925 at Resolution from the Heightmap section. This indicates the sampling step (with what step the exporter needs to sample the heightmap). Using the same value as your tile size will indicate that you will export with the same resolution as in the scene.

Also, in the "Output info" there is an indication of how big the heightmap will be after export. In your first case, because you were using 10 as resolution step (which was the default value), you've basically exported 50.0925 heightmap values for each value in the scene (so your scene was 50 times bigger at export that it should be).

Anyway, your scene size (in world space) is 2795560 (2.79556e+006 in the input info). You can divide this number with your chosen "Resolution" and you will get the "Heightmap output" size.

Strangely, by dividing this value (2795560) with your tile size, the "Height output" is not an integer number. Are you sure your tile size is 500.925? What are you referring to by "tile"? Let me know the exact parameters you were using when you've created the terrain zones.

Regards,
Adrian L.
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mrhiggens
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 14

heres what i have for zone creation. it did have .925 at the end of it for a few zones i think but does that decimal really make a difference?




EDIT: so if I ever do make a map in which i have 500 as the export resolution and the output terrain size is 200000 will it take a week to export and leave me with a 8gb file size?
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ALicu
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1327

All you have to do is to use the tile size as the resolution step at heightmap export and you end up with an export resolution as the one from the scene. So in your case use 500 units for resolution step in export plugin UI. This export should take very small time to export for that scene (under a minute).

Basically you've used a resolution of 10 when you had 500 (plus / minus few decimals) units for the tile size so you've exported 50 of tiles for each heightmap vertex instead of only one. So your scene was something like 50 x 50 (2500) times bigger that it should have been !

I recommend using an integer number for tile size (not numbers with decimals). To be noted that the tile in that case is the distance between two vertices on terrain.

So, in Grome terminology, you have:

- terrain zone = a continuous zone of terrain. Multiple zones make up the scene. In your case you have 7 by 2 zones. I also recommend having square or at least power of two zones number on each edge (you can have 8 by 2 in your case, or 4 by 4). This would help data alignment in your engine and also the export.

- tile = a small patch (square) in the terrain made of 4 neighbor vertices. Tile size is basically the distance between two vertices (points) on terrain. Some other editors use tile name indicating what in Grome is a terrain zone, so many confuse them.

- terrain resolution is indicated in tiles number. You have 512 in your case. Which is good since power of two is best from memory point of view. I recommend using 512 or 1024 tiles per zone.

In your above case, you have:
- 7 by 2 zones
- each zone is of 512 by 512 tiles
- each tile is 500 units long.
- so in total you have 7 x 512 x 500 by 2 x 512 x 500 units of map

500 units / tile maybe is too much and you will notice that the camera far plane is clipping the scene. You can change the far plane to be more advanced from the scene right tab.

To be noted that most of the Grome presets work best with a tile size of 10.

Units that made a tile can be anything. You can thing of them as inches, meters, km, miles etc. It's your choice. So in your case you can say you have 500 cm between two vertices (that is 5 meters which can make a fairly good first person shooter resolution) or they can be 500 feet which makes a flight simulator scene (seen from far above).

I hope this information helps.

Regards,
Adrian L.

EDIT: about your results. 200000 by 200000 for a map is very big. Uncompressed, it is approx 70GB with 2 bytes per pixel. The point is that your map should not be that big. You've selected the wrong export resolution step of 10. Use tiles size (500) and you should be fine.


Last edited by ALicu on Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mrhiggens
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 14

ok cool, thanks for the help Smile
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mrhiggens
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 14

ok now i have another question/problem. I exported a terrain which was made up of zones with 500 tiles each so in the exporter i put 500 as the resolution units. after 5 mins or so it was done exporting and i had a 600mb file with this for output info :
Heightmap output size: 4131, 17616
Masks size: 206483, 880768
Color layers size: 206483, 880768

The question i have is: why doesn't the exported png tell me what the image dimensions are like on a smaller terrain that i exported earlier? and also why cant i open the png in any program such as paint or photoshop as it says the file is unsupported/and or there's an error with the file?

seems to be a problem with the 500 tile size so i guess i'll restart all over again with 10...?

Im trying to make terrain for a mmorpg where we plan to have the worlds largests landmass (in mmo) so the bigger and faster i can make terrain the better.

EDIT: seems like the mask size has to be square for it to work? anyway to fix this so that it doesnt matter?
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ALicu
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1327

Hi,

Your output sizes are very strange so there is a probability that the output resolution are not matching the scene resolution (especially for masks and color layers). So, please can you tell me:

- how many terrain zones do you have in the scene? Example: I have 10 by 12 terrain zones. You can see this in "X zones" and "Z zones" fields.
- how big are these zones in tiles number? Example: they have 512 tiles. I understand that you have a tile size of 500 units, but how many tiles are on a edge of each zone? You can see this in "Tiles no" field.

If you choose a "tiles no" that is power of two you will also end up with an export size that is power of two (which is not the case for you, since you have 4131 by 17616 for the output). That may be one of the reasons the PNG file is not visible in other programs, but most probably the programs don't know how to read a 16 bit png (photoshop should know though) or the file is just too big for them.

Also, a proper resolution step must be set for color and masks layers in can you export those. Depending on your mask texture sizes for each zone you must choose a good sampling step. Other wise you may end up exporting a very big image (206483 x 880768 in your case). Probably that's why you had to wait 6 min (and not for the heightmap png file).

You may wonder why you have to enter the resolution and why for each type of layer? Well, this exporter gather all the zones data into one big continuous image (one PNG for heightmap, one image for masks on a certain layer for all the zones etc). This is necessary for most of the large terrain engine. Alternatively you can export one png image for each zone, one mask image for each zone etc. This is done with other exporters (see text exporter for example).

So when you export a big image for all the zones, you must sample this image at a constant step. That's necessary since each zone, for example, can have a different heightmap resolution (different tiles numbers, different tile size etc). Grome allows for this. So in order to export a single heightmap, you need to sample it (most probably at the resolution step given by the higher zone resolution). "Sampling the heightmap" means that the exporter goes through the scene from one end to another by using a step and gets the heightmap from that point in scene (ask the Grome engine to give him the heightmap from X,Z point then moves to X+step and ask the heightmap from X+step, Z and so on until it reaches the end of OX, then goes to Z+step and X = 0 and sample another line, and so on).

So, please let me know your exact scene size and export parameters for this last case that at least worked to produce some data. And I will try to offer you best values in terms of scene size and export parameters.

Regards,
Adrian L.
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mrhiggens
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 14







thats the info for one zone i made. The only way i could successfully export a map was if i only made 1 patch of zones and the mask size was equal say 2666,2666 unlike where the ones that dont work they are 2650 ,2467 or something like that.
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ALicu
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1327

Hello,

Your terrain size is 2.06483e+006, 8.80768e+006 which is pretty huge and it is not dividable by 500. So your tile size is probably not 500. To be noted that if you already have other zones in the scene they will be exported too, unless you choose "Export only selected zones" and select only the new zones with tile size of 500.

So it seems that you already have some zones in the scene before creating new ones. How big are these? What's their tile size? Please use their exact tile size when exporting (from screenshots 500 seems that is not matching your terrain tile size).

I recommend using a square number of zones (4 by 4, 8 by Cool and a smaller size for tile (10 is the best for default Grome presets).

Regards,
Adrian L.
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mrhiggens
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 14

thats weird i used 500 tile size for all of them. . I think it is because the zones dont line up even though i have snap on. could that be a cause?

I guess i'll just keep playing around till i can get this perfected.

hmm i made one with 10 size tiles and the exported heightmap was a bit messed up from what it actually was which was just a flat area to test and the only thing wrong with this map was the edges of the zones were not aligned perfectly because the snap tool would not allow it for some reason.

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ALicu
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1327

Hi,

If you use snap the zones should line-up fine.

It must be that you've used different tile size for various zones.

Anyway, to test the process, we can use the following simple approach:

1. create 4 by 4 zones selecting:
tile size = 500
No of tiles = 512
X Zones: 4
Z Zones: 4
Basically we've created 4 by 4 zones, of 512x512 tiles each, with 500 units per tile.

2. Then at export select a Resolution of 500
In the output panel you should have a size of 2048, 2048 (that is 4 x 512)

3. Load the exported PNG in Photoshop (or other program).
You should have a valid grey scale representation of the heightmap.

Regards,
Adrian L.

PS: snap probably didn't allow you to properly position the mouse since you are trying to snap a zone with a different edge size (due to a tile size of 500 or another value) to new one (which has a completely different edge size, having a tile size of 10). To be able to snap, you need to have zones matching the edge size and tile size (not necessarily the same sizes, but multiple of one-another. Example: a zone of 512 tiles with 10 units per tile will snap to a zone of 256 tile with 20 units per tile, since there is a 1:2 ratio at tile size).
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mrhiggens
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 14

i decided im fine with using 10 tile size but anyway just to reply to your test

the file exported was still unopenable in any program. the output info was

Heightmap output size: 2049, 2049
Masks size: 102400, 102400
Color layers size: 102400, 102400

and input

Terrain pos: -472000, -552000 (left - lower corner)
Terrain size: 1.024e+006, 1.024e+006
Terrain height: 0 - 0 (min - max)


ive successfully made maps with 10 tile size now so this doesn't really matter anymore , but maybe for future reference for anyone else...
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ALicu
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1327

Hello,

Size 2049 seems the correct one. The PNG was not probably not un-openable because it is 16 bit raw. What program did you used? Photoshop should open it fine.

Regards,
Adrian
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