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duke2
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:52 am    Post subject: Demo questions Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 45

I downloaded and tried out the demo to see if Grome could handle my insane requirements:

-1000 x 704km terrain = 61x43 tiles of 16384x16384 units at 4096x4096 pixels.

So I went into Grome, went to zone creation and typed in X zones = 61 and Z zones = 43, with an edge dimension of 16384, and tiles no. 4096. I hit create and it came up with the error "Error allocating memory! Application ran out of memory!. Now my questions are these:

1) Is Grome 64bit? When I got the memory error Grome was only using 960mb of ram. I'm running win64 with 4gig of ram.

2) Is it possible to alter terrain zone sizes/properties once it's created? For example, if Grome were able to make this huge terrain, i'd like to be able to make zones smaller in pixel resolution based on their area.

3) Is there a far-clip distance? When working on such large terrain I don't need to see 100km away!

4) I think with 1.2, there was disk-paging for exporting terrain tiles, but is there internal paging? For example, it would be good if it operated in conjunction with a far-clip distance, so only those terrain zones inside the clip range were loaded/in memory, and those outside were paged from disk when they came into view.

I was very impressed with the functionality of Grome, but i'd love to see some of these things addressed as i'd be buying Grome solely for this project which it can't yet handle Sad
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ALicu
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1328

Hi,

When you said 16384 x 16384 is that for each zone or for the entire terrain?
At the zone creation, the edge dimension is referring to the edge of each zone (and not the entire terrain).

One zone of 16384 is really too big for a continuous tile (we call it terrain zone in Grome). So the first thing to do is to broken it in multiple zones (512by512 for example). So you may end up having multiple Grome terrain zones for one of your tiles. But this is not problem since you can relink them at export time.

For now you cannot change a terrain zone resolution after creation directly from Grome (but we will add one tool in the future). You can however do that by creating a Utility plugin that can be run from Grome menu. Also, Grome is not now on 64bit but we plan a version in the future.

About paging, yes there is an internal paging system (called swap system) which allows you to individually select zones and bring them in and out of memory. This is the preferable way for editing applications since the user must have control over what zones are in memory (so for example if he wants to copy some parameters from two zones with a great distance between them he can). But this system is disabled in the demo version. You can look at the tutorials and see how it works.

Far-clipping distance can be set from the scene Workspace panel -> Scene tab -> right click on Camera Settings and choose Modify global camera settings. From there you can set far , near clip planes, the camera fov etc.

I think that your map can be processed in Grome with the following method. Use the default raw importer with a huge raw file. Select multiple zones to be created (of 512 by 512 vertices for example) and check that swap system is to be used (this will cause the zones to be imported and then swapped out to disk, leaving them in unload state). After importing you bring in memory the zones you need to edit (you can edit for example in batches of 4 by 4 terrain zones of 512 by 512). Swap out and in zones as you work. Use various brushes and tools to make the transition smooth.

Your map requirements are very high, but Grome can allow editing using its swap system. The downfall is that you cannot have it all loaded in memory at once and apply tools on the entire map.

Another initial step that can be made is to have the terrain first created at a lower resolution, edit the main features (indicate where are rivers, where are mountains etc). Export it to raw, increase the raw resolution and import it back with more zones.

Unfortunately, some features (swap and import/export) are disabled from demo (to not allow saving). But for any information please don't hesitate to contact us. I can also try to simulate work on a map as yours and send you the results.

Regards,
Adrian L.
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duke2
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 45

ALicu wrote:
Hi,
Another initial step that can be made is to have the terrain first created at a lower resolution, edit the main features (indicate where are rivers, where are mountains etc). Export it to raw, increase the raw resolution and import it back with more zones.


That's a good idea!

I'm trying again with these settings:
Tile size: 128
Edge dimension: 512 (4 pix per metre)
X: 1952
Z: 1376

X and Z are that because (16384/512)=32, so 61x32 = 1952, 43x32 = 1376

Grome is having cardiac problems just showing that many zones (I set my far clipping to 4096), so i'm going to look at the scripting docs and see if I can make a script to do it rather than interactively.
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duke2
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 45

Also when I try to create terrain zones with the following settings:

Tiles No: 128
Tile (not edge): 4.0
X: 61
Z: 43

..and create, it doesn't actually make anything :\
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ALicu
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1328

Hi, you cannot have that much data into memory in the demo version because it doesn't have the swap system in it. I will try to prepare a map with that dimensions and post the results here. But your requirements are very very big. Is like 1 mil by 1 mil vertices of terrain which is really huge (the data on disk will be like hundreds of GB). Making a simple computation the heightmap data (only 1 float per vertex) will be like 40GB of data.

Looking at your initial specs, you want to have a map of 1000 km by 700 km with a resolution of 1 meter between vertices. Which is really huge! I don't know any application / game / engine / viewer to handle that.

But I will try my best to find the Grome limits on this Smile
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duke2
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 45

4 metres per vertex. And yes it's insanely large Wink

This is the map i'd be creating (all of them are 8192x4096):



A fair bit of it is underwater, which is why I asked about changing zone resolution after creation - the underwater ones would only need to be 12 or 24 metres per vertex.


Last edited by duke2 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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ALicu
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1328

You can clearly work with Grome to make a map that big. With the swap system the map size is really limited only by the hard disk space. But you will have to work with limited numbers of zones in memory at once.

The map should be started small, and then added new zones (of 512 by 512 for example) at borders and extend. You can work with a subzone of 8 by 8 km at once (4 by 4 zones of 512 vertices x 4 meters). But the final size of the map would mean that it will take some time to make.

You can see from the left most video tutorial here:

http://www.quadsoftware.com/index.php?m=section&sec=product&subsec=editor&target=editor_tutorials

how the swap system is operated.
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duke2
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 45

Awesome! I have one last question! Is there a water plane that you can display so you have a reference for sea level? Or is it planned?
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ALicu
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1328

There are several methods to display the water plane (or any level for that matter).

One would be to have a special layer created on the terrain that you can easily and automatically generate to indicate any level (use ColorGen with a distribution mask to color the terrain blue under a level and black (or other color) above that altitude). You can then enable / disable the layer at will to show the water level. You can even have the layer using ID Map shading so the black color (indicating the above water level) is considered transparent.

Secondly, if you really want to have a plane there, you can create a low res (2 by 2 vertices) terrain zone that stretches around the entire map (in Grome you can have overlapping terrain zones) and call it like WaterPlane or something. You can easily hide/show it using unhide/show by name.

Another method (similar with the previous one) is to have an plane object imported in the scene which you hide / show at will.

So there are multiple methods and all require only simple operations. In the future we can add a simple option (something like show water gizmo) in the global preferences.
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duke2
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 45

I just went to order and it won't take my gmail email! That's all I have Sad haha. I'll see if I have webmail with my isp..
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ALicu
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1328

Yes, indeed, for security reasons, our merchant account doesn't take public emails. But I think you can use one from other free sites that are not well known (like gmail, yahoo are). Make sure you use a good email account anyway since this will be your client identification to us.
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duke2
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 45

I just got my old email going again (@dukecg.net). Downloading message 51 of 9425. Oh boy.
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duke2
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 45

Ordered! Oh boy oh boy oh boy
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ALicu
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1328

Glad to hear that. Welcome to our community!
I'm sure the sales guys will send you the license file as soon as they have the sale confirmation. Once you have the program installed I can further help you by providing hints and procedures. You will also have access to post on the program clients forum sections so don't hesitate to post any questions there.
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duke2
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 45

All done! Just waiting on my license now Smile

edit: Got it.
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